I am planning to convert a garage into an ADU (accessory dwelling unit). Then, we would install carpet on top of the Advantech (with the typical carpet pad) in the front half of the room. That's another item on my project list. Hey Martin- Hoping you might be able to advise on a specific use case. I do recognize that this may not always be possible. My instinct tells me that you shouldn't put 1,000-pound cast-iron power tools on top of rigid foam. Good luck with that. Of course, there are two kinds of basements - those that are wet and those that will be wet! Future state, If you suddenly have a material with low-perms over all of the slab except the bottom plates, you will see an increase in moisture at those plates. I don't believe there's insulation or vapor barrier under the slab, and although we haven't done a moisture test yet, there doesn't seem to be any serious moisture problems. Or maybe it's just that my house has the usual suite of "normal" issues. So if you have a condition where the edge is exposed (e.g., door threshold between insulated and uninsulated slab), it needs some protection. Insulation located below grade, as required in Climate Zones 4 through 8, should extend the length specified in the table by any combination of vertical insulation, insulation extending under the slab, or insulation extending out perpendicular to the building Insulation extending perpendicular away from the building should be protected by pavement or by not less than 10 inches of soil. Any advice would be greatly appreciated, thank you! Martin, Heat loss between wall plate and edge of floor. A. My friend omitted the polyethylene. I appreciate the tips and the photos. If in-slab heating (or cooling) is to be used, Note especially Comment #6 on that page by Mike Guertin. Photograph 2: Perimeter Slab Edge Insulation and Perimeter Slab Insulation—Two inches of rigid insulation is about the maximum practical thickness possible. (They say if you put a black locust post in the ground, the hole will wear out before the post!). Would a leveling of dry and clean sand, on top of the EPS and below the plywood, work? Black locust is incredibly rot resistant, so I feel pretty good. Now, my question is what should I do on the floor? The specifications above suggest two 1/2" layers of t/g plywood. I'm not sure why you don't want to use it. After installing platon and 2" of EPS, I am considering installing a regular 1/2" plywood for first course, then screwing, and possibly glueing, a 3/4 T/G course over it. I just can't afford it. I will do the rigid foam work myself and let a local pro handle the spray foam. I often refer to them as borderline dirty concrete/conrete-y dirt. Notice that the sheet polyethylene “vapor barrier” is located on the top of the rigid insulation between the rigid insulation and the bottom surface of the concrete – in direct contact with the concrete. (Starting from the basement concrete slab going up): ISOVER Acoustic Partition Roll (APR 1200), insulationuk.marketingteam@saint-gobain.com. If a home is to be air conditioned then under-slab and slab-edge insulation will reduce the amount of air conditioning required by reducing heat ingress through the slab, and should be used. Clearly, no one is advising you to install carpeting under the partition bottom plates -- so you'll work around the partitions. See RADIANT HEAT MISTAKES; Question: Install Tile Floor over Slab Using 3mm Polystyrene Sheets Under a Radiant Floor over Concrete. I'm considering the same approach. In this situation, why can't one use a single 3/4" layer of high quality OSB/plywood and glue the OSB/plywood to the rigid insulation underneath it, rather than use two thinner layers of OSB/plywood screwed to each other? I'm not sure what you mean by "the top surface." It's here that I plan to used closed-cell spray foam, which will also run continuously to cover the rim joist etc. Both EPS and polyiso should be available. Roofing insulation manufacturers can provide customized, sloped insulation boards. A little gap is a good idea -- but you should caulk the gap. Lots of issues here. As the owner of over one hundred rentals houses over the years, I wouldn't put anything organic like plywood on any basement floor. However, reading your article, I'm wondering if I should put some EPS foam down on the concrete before putting in the rubber mat underlayment. If I follow the assembly instructions and not fasten the subfloor into the concrete slab are there any potential concerns in this area with the use of concrete tile as the finished floor? On request with black glass veil facing (V2). The closed-cell spray foam will be a vapor barrier, a water barrier, an air barrier, and insulation. What if you’re living in an older house that has an uninsulated basement slab? He confirmed that the product we used will withstand 20 psi (the charts I found online only said 16 psi but I think either would be sufficient to meet code). It's possible that you have correctly identified his concern. © Copyright 2021 Saint-Gobain Insulation UK (comprised of Celotex and Saint-Gobain ISOVER UK Limited. You need to get help from a structural engineer and a sound engineer. "Are there any issues leaving the rigid foam exposed on the walls and floors of the crawlspace area? But you should probably check out this article: "Foam Under Footings." 1 layer 3/4” Advantech OSB Tyler, That article includes lots of technical information and links to references discussing the bearing capacity of various types of rigid foam. I was thinking that approach would give us a nice vapor barrier & air gap as well as decent R-value. You wrote, "I plan on using spray foam to insulate the top surface of the concrete wall.". I have a project that includes converting a storage room in a garage to a conditioned laundry room space. When demolishing the existing finishes (with the aim to better waterproof the concrete from the interior) I discovered mould on the concrete walls and floor. They did put in rigid foam (2 inches) on the sides of the slab, and beneath the slab, although they neglected to put it under the 12-inch perimeter where the logs sit. Budget and ceiling heights both play into this. A. We were planning to install a 1/2" rubber underlayment (similar to horse mat material) glued to the concrete. Thanks, My first reaction to your question was to suggest self-leveling compound, until you wrote that you are trying to avoid it. It does not constitute advice and should not be relied upon. As far as I know, XPS needs to be covered with either a thermal barrier or an ignition barrier for fire safety. There are two uncertainties: 1. Joe, I've generally found that Tapcons do not "pull" the same way as wood screws, so the fastener will not countersink on its own into plywood or OSB. Concrete slab insulation is important for energy savings and home comfort. Thanks Martin. Lightweight (gypsum) concrete would be a much better solution, or even just concrete grout - that's concrete without the bigger aggregate. Use floor leveling compound or crushed stone. In the rear half, we would build the stage/riser platform on top of the Advantech. The tricky part here is we only have about 1.5" of total height to work with for all the layers including insulation/subfloor + floor, so I'm trying to maximize the thermal r-value within that. I was thinking of placing pressure treated and ripped sleepers at 8 feet on center on top of the eps to create guides to level the sand. I definitely recommend cement backer board (Durock, Wonderboard) over fiber cement tile backer (Hardie)--the latter is "stiff" enough that a point load will "curl" up the other part of the board. Installing a Hardwood Floor Over a Concrete Slab - American … Misleading Energy Reports Used to Sell Spray Foam, https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/the-high-cost-of-deep-energy-retrofits, http://www.greatlakeshomeperformance.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/ICC-ES-Styrofoam-ESR-2142-Code-Report.pdf, "Thermal Barriers and Ignition Barriers for Spray Foam. But if you have any doubts, you should contact your local building department to find out how local inspectors interpret the code in your jurisdiction. They keep the depth of the floor construction down, meaning less excavation, and are easily handled and laid to quickly insulate large areas. Mostly this is due to lack of availability of 1/2" t/g plywood. Isover |Glass Wool | Slabs and Rolls| Cavity Wall | Loft Insulation Reid, Barbara, On the inside of the walls, I have applied a layer of 3/4" EPS foam. 1) Should I put down that vapor barrier you mentioned on top of the slab, before I lay down the rigid foam? Covering foam in a crawl space with the less stringent barrier (an ignition barrier) is only possible if it meets the following criteria: if the crawl space is only accessed for repairs or maintenance; if there is no easy access to the space; and if it isn’t used for storage. I don't have an "official statement" I can point to. Q. I concur with the recommendation for adding a countersink to the Tapcon hole. Matt, One more thing--I'd recommend EPS and XPS over polyisocyanurate in this on-slab application. The link provides an ICC-ES Evaluation Report: http://www.greatlakeshomeperformance.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/ICC-ES-Styrofoam-ESR-2142-Code-Report.pdf, Stephen, (“Saint-Gobain Insulation UK”, “Celotex”, and “ISOVER”) Two layers of 1/2" ply with staggered seams comparatively was rock solid. If you want the benefits of floor insulation, you’ll have to install the rigid foam on top of your existing slab. I'm constructing a log house on a floating slab in southwest Wisconsin, and am making plans for a wood floor on top of the slab. It should be better than the Amdry product because of the ability to tape and stagger the seams. This is a complicated topic. I'd be leery of trying your idea (sand on top of the EPS). We are doing a small partial garage conversion and installed rigid foam above the concrete slab with two staggered half-inch plywood layers on top. - High quality 3/4" OSB weighs approximately 75 lbs per 4'x8' sheet - which is about the same weight as the equivalent area of Durock (mentioned above). Do I need to leave a gap around the perimeter of the rigid foam and framing or should this be snug? Advantages The sub-floor is prepared using well-compacted hardcore and a layer of sand blinding. Arguably, the 6 mil poly above the slab won't be necessary if you plan to install rigid foam. Depending on the use of the building, the slab can then be finished ready for use, or receive a screed suitable for a floor finish. CELOTEX: Lady Lane Industrial Estate, Hadleigh, Ipswich, Suffolk, IP7 6BA. If the insulation is going below the slab, the damp proof membrane (DPM) is laid next, followed by the insulation, a polythene separating layer, and the concrete slab. :/. I don't recommend the use of DriCore. I'm nearly certain the contractors did not install a vapor barrier beneath the slab. Either one can be ordered loose enough to easily rake and trowel flat. On top of that I'll put 1x12 kiln dried tongue and groove pine boards for my subfloor. Also, prefer not to use OSB, particularly on the first layer since it will need to hold the screws on the second layer above. ASHRAE 90.1 Compliant. The floor joists rest on top of the concrete - they are not embedded. Saint-Gobain Construction Products UK Limited trading as Celotex, Registered in England. If you’re building a new cold-climate home with a basement, you’ll probably want to install a continuous horizontal layer of rigid foam under the basement slab. Matt, Get building science and energy efficiency advice, plus special offers, in your inbox. I am really out of my element with this stuff but I can load the permit office up with pdfs full of indecipherable technical specs. It's astonishing that any concrete contractor could be so ignorant that he or she would forget to install polyethylene under the slab. Q. T: 01473 822093. In my situation, in would certainly be possible to run the poly up the walls as high as the foam will go, which is to the top of the concrete. 2” EPS TECH Slab MT 2.2 is the semi-rigid stone mineral wool slab for the insulation of industry tanks and vessels, exhaust ducts and stacks with a maximum service temperature of up to 560 °C. I am in the process of removing approximately 50 tons of earth from this space (24 x 34 feet). Unless your basement is constantly wet, the foam is going to see dry conditions nearly all the time. If there is no rigid foam under the logs (! I'm not sure what a "Rec rood situation" is -- maybe you meant to write "rec room"? How were the results for you? Regarding Dana’s “month long Polk Party” post when he was talking about rigid foam compression concerns, I have the following question: Dana references EPS Type-II. While Celotex PIR boards have a good compressive strength, they cannot be laid below a raft slab and take the structural load of the building. When Reid posted his question, I wasn't sure what his concern was. Heat transfer through the slab, in the winter and the summer. Was it plywood or OSB? Another idea is to lay a dimple membrane like DMX/Delta-FL, then something like a 1" rigid EPS/XPS onto that. Stephen, ISOVER: White House Industrial Estate, Runcorn, Cheshire, WA7 3DP. There would be two exterior doors that would need to be installed as well - one into the garage and another that leads to the outside. If you have two layers of 1/2-inch or 3/4-inch plywood or OSB screwed together, however, I imagine you'll be fine. Would that work? Where insulation is positioned above the slab, the slab and DPM can be installed either way round. 2. The two layers of plywood and sand would be floating on top of the insulation. If you want a utilitarian basement floor rather than a finished space, you might consider installing a cementitious tile underlayment panel (something like Durock) directly on top of the rigid foam insulation. They can, however, be installed above the raft slab, in the same arrangement as described above. Thanks Martin- even for slab on grade? Honestly I think I'd be mildly concerned about the bottom plates on the partition walls. It is a concrete floor with concrete walls up to above grade. Barbara. Bradley, did you try tongue and groove? Under the concrete slab, we used a 10 mil sheet of poly. Tel +44 (0) 800 032 2555. Thank you for the very timely and excellent article! I won't be doing OSB for the subfloor, as I already bought the pine boards (and I already am not using other pine boards I bought for the ceiling after you'd wisely recommended drywall instead). So I now have a second floor space that never existed originally. My thought is that in the Northeast, there are lots of older housing stock with poorly poured basement slabs. If you have a damp basement, repair work has to begin outside, Advice for contractors installing rigid foam or furring strips to walls made of concrete, CMUs, or bricks, Dimple mats help reduce hydrostatic pressure near basement walls. I believe those 3 layers alone would be close to the 1.5"of height I have to work with. Current state, the carpet may be permeable enough to prevent moisture problems. "If I follow the assembly instructions and I do not fasten the subfloor into the concrete slab, are there any potential concerns in this area with the use of concrete tile as the finished floor?". I found one that said it was also for "floor assemblies" but I don't know if that will suffice. - Typical basement furniture, bed, Home Theater chairs, Heavier loads may include: Registered Offices: Saint-Gobain House, East Leake, Loughborough, Leicestershire, LE12 6JU. Barbara, I'm looking to seal up the vents in the crawlspace, add some air movement from the conditioned space into the crawl space and add rigid insulation to the walls and floors. Do you have any advice on how to proceed if the concrete slab is sloped? What type of flooring will you be installing? We're converting a garage to a music space and would like to put down laminate plank flooring. - It should be at least as good as the Amdry product that has a layer of foam and OSB glued together. FYI--the foam + cement board retrofit is what we used in the basement of the Utica NY retrofit you wrote about (https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/the-high-cost-of-deep-energy-retrofits). My plan is to paint the walls (and floor?) "I am considering replacing basement flooring at my parent's house, which currently has carpet over concrete with no foam. For a deep dive into the issue, I suggest that you read this article: "Foam Under Footings.". We have installed a French drain around the base of the exterior walls on this room and applied water sealing compound and dimpled mat. Hi Peter. Here is the corrected link: "EPS Geofoam Data Sheet.". This new space, with its 10 foot ceiling, will be my new workshop. Is your basement a damp hole in the ground or a delightful place to retreat and tinker at your workbench? I'd rather do the floating floor than fasten through to the concrete. Are you using open-cell spray foam or closed-cell spray foam? The building detail is for illustrative purposes only. 2) Will my pine boards (already purchased) be able to float like the OSB boards without causing issues? You should contact the tile manufacturer to determine the manufacturer's subflooring requirements. If you install just one layer, you’ll need to fasten the OSB or plywood to the concrete slab with long Tapcon screws that extend through the rigid foam. Luxury Vinyl Plank, LOADS Acting as a barrier to fire, the slabs can withstand temperatures of up to 1,000°C. What we have right now is concrete slab on grade and we're concerned about heat loss (we're in Massachusetts). Thanks! Physics 101: Heat flows from warm to cold For more information on this issue, see "Determining Sub-Slab Rigid Foam Thickness.". I also realized that it'd be quite a waste of foam. Can anyone think of why it isn't a good idea? Thank you Martin. Installing Rigid Foam Above a Concrete Slab - GreenBuildingAdvisor However, the front portion of the room (about half) will remain at grade level in the room (2 feet lower than the rest of the first floor). Kind of funny, at the time, they built the mid-level section with a vented crawlspace, with common interior doors for access to the crawl space. 4/10/2012 3 Climate Zones E301.1 6 5 8 4 Slab R‐Value Table 402.1.1 Insulation and Fenestration Requirements by Component E402.1.1 ClimateZone Slab R‐valued 4 10, 2 ft 5 10,2 ft 6 10,4 ft 9 d. R‐5 shall be added for heated slabs Heated slab: slab‐on‐grade construction in which the heating elements are in contact with, or placed within or under the slab Therefore, the conditions at the slab-to-foam interface are likely to rise to 100% RH for most of the year--so it is an area where you want a material that is resistant to moisture uptake. Register to gain access to our comprehensive technical library which contains helpful specification tools, including BIM objects and much, much more... E: insulationuk.marketingteam@saint-gobain.com This is the method a friend and I did in his basement. Install one or two layers of tongue-and-groove OSB or plywood on top of the rigid foam. Building regulationsWhen correctly installed as part of the floors and/or walls of a building, this product can help meet UK acoustic Building Regulation requirements. That said, was the deflection any more than a 3/4" ply joint between floor joists? For more information on the issue, see "Thermal Barriers and Ignition Barriers for Spray Foam.". I'm also concerned with the continuity of your home's barriers -- the continuity of the insulation layer (now that you are planning to peel away some or all of the insulation from your home's roof) and especially the continuity of your home's waterproofing layer (now that you are introducing a new seam between the earth-sheltered portion of your home and the new second story). - pool table, Mark, Q. I just wanted to point out that it shouldn't be ruled out in all cases, because there are plenty of slabs that are dry, but uninsulated where polyiso might be a good choice. Point taken. ", Using a Dimple Mat to Keep a Basement Wall Dry. The main difference from a Rec rood situation is that my workshop equipment is relatively heavy (some vintage pieces are cast iron and > 1,000#) and the locations are not fixed; I have found that workshop layout requires flexibility of machine placement as need changes over time. Insulation below the slab suits continuous, low level heating, gradually warming the thermal mass of the concrete and sustaining it at a consistent temperature. Tel +44 (0) 1473 822093. I agree that if the bottom plates are pressure treated and there is a capillary break, Reid will be fine. And then I'll put a wood floor over that. After the building had been dried in, the crew put down sheets of Even though the rigid foam won’t save enough energy to justify its cost, it’s worth installing for another reason: it will reduce summertime condensation and mold accumulation, and will therefore help your basement smell better. level some rails to ride a sled with some foam eating tool on it. Either way, thank you! I am trying to use less concrete to reduce the carbon footprint where possible. A. Bradley, Probably can go over that by a 1/4" but not more. "Would a foam subtractive method be totally crazy, I wonder?". Concrete Slab These products are very expensive, and you would need a lot of it to fill the typical 3"-6" slope of a garage floor. We were very happy with the results--per your other correspondents, it results in a very solid-feeling floor, with minimal "bounce." with drylok or equivalent, insulate the floor with 1" eps, two layers of 1/2" ply or osb, insulate the walls with 1.5" eps then frame a 2x4 wall in front (and on top of the plywood,) insulate that with mineral wool batts, and drywall/carpet for the finishes... Do you see any issues or missed steps with this plan? Assuming I utilize Dow XPS insulation, I believe for crawl spaces, I can install without a thermal barrier or ignition barrier. For the rigid foam route, would it be sound to place a sealed layer of dimpled membrane directly on the slab, then 1" XPS (Foamular 150? 100mm Isover Cavity Wall Slabs (pack of 12) - Insulation Shop Before we discuss slab insulation, it’s worth reviewing the three basic mechanisms that can make a basement slab damp: Sign up for a free trial and get instant access to this article as well as GBA’s complete library of premium articles and Thanks for the timely article. Of course, there are those other studies out there that says EPS gains much less moisture than XPS.... paid for by the EPS industry. It is worth a try and much cheaper than hiring an engineer for my 10' x 10' garage conversion. So beneath the logs, I put sill seal directly on the slab, and then I put two full two-inch-by-ten-inch black locust boards (so four inches thick) between the sill seal and logs. gradually warming the thermal mass of the concrete and sustaining it at a consistent temperature. Where the heating is likely to be turned on and off, such as in new-build domestic properties, and a faster thermal response is required, the ‘floating floor’ arrangement of insulation above the slab can be more appropriate. The slab is WAY out of level, 2″ over 12′ in one direction, 3″ over 20′ in another. To bring the floor level with the house, we used 4.5" of rigid foam. 2 layers of 1/2” Advantech OSB In my opinion -- yes, it would. Or should I just stick with the original plan and use a special glue that will also serve as a water barrier? - No load bearing walls will be placed on assembly. Tacking the foam to the slab with adhesive would probably help, and you would need a lot of weights to keep the plywood flat while the glue dried, but it should work. :) So of course, no vapor control underneath. It's a judgment call. Q. These sleepers would align with the short edges of the first plywood layer placed on top. Reid's parents may also be lucky and just have a dry basement. Slabmate is the new under slab insulation solution for slab on ground construction.Slabmate has been designed to create a thermal barrier adding to the total insulation of the project.. Environmentally friendly, Slabmate is made here in Australia for both commercial and residential projects.Slabmate is lightweight, safe and easy to install and will maintain its R value for the life the building. (Note that these instructions are often available online.). For more information, see "Fixing a Wet Basement." This is the method I used in my basement--trying to have dry tool storage and workshop space; it went together very quickly and easily. Thanks, Kohta. (To learn more about sub-slab foam, see “All About Basements.”). Slab is made quick and easy with the patented FLEXI Edge®, which enables friction fitting without the need for cutting, and without leaving performance sapping gaps.

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